Life before 2008 07 Sep 2006 06:45 am
Found It!!
It’s been nagging me why certain sentiments and lines of thought grate on me in ways that can’t be dismissed. Why can’t I just be casual? All inclusive? Live and let live?
Here’s a quote from Mike in his comment section. I name the speaker only to properly identify who said it but I think it’s the view of many:
“it’s a slippery slope I admit, and there isn’t a right or wrong, it’s just fun to argue about it.”
And I’ve said the following here before: Right or wrong, I DON’T believe all choices are equal. I don’t beleive EVERYTHING comes down to preference.
Notice I said “thing”, not “one”. If I accomplish one thing in life, I’d hope that I grew in my ability to love others regardless of the choices they make in thier life.
But some choices ARE better than others. And in a walk toward sanctification and growing to be more like Christ, some choices ARE more “right” than others.
There’s a “take what works for you and leave the rest” mentality, a BUFFET of choices out there, that we (moderns today) tend to want to apply to everything. But you know what? Aged cheddar is better than velvetta. Wine is better than grape koolaid. Life matters. To be honest is better than to be liar.
All choices are not equal. Ideas (and buffet choices) have consequences.
I used to have a pastor that dissuaded the different choices people make by implying that some were looking for righteousness in what choice they made. As in, “I’m holier than thou because I have bread at communion rather than saltines.” Or, “I’m holier than thou because I homeschool rather than public school.” The result was a paralysis of a pursuit of holy living. People were afraid they’d be seen as “proud” if they tried to do anything that might be different than what the congregation at large was doing. And, I’ll go the next step because I experienced it: it robs the blessing one recieves when they do something sacrficially out of love for Another.
Looking for righteousness outside of Christ is what is the problem there. Then, talking about and flaunting it. NOT the choice. Real bread (and not being casual about the elements) really is a good thing. And homeschooling for the right reasons may be a very sound choice, a very sanctifiying choice, for a family to make. Homeschooling itself won’t make them more holy. But being willing to walk more like Christ, perhaps via the extra hours and sacrificial lifestyle that homeschooling provides, WILL.
This all goes back to my origional point. If it’s (Christianity) all one big buffet, if it doesn’t matter what I do and what I choose, then I’d rather not bother. The consequence of an idea.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 7:27 am 1.Sarah said …
I agree wholeheartedly. I’m getting kinda sick of people doing whatever is comfortable for them instead of really looking at the choices and choosing what is RIGHT, not what is convenient or most pleasurable. I wish more people thought like this too.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 7:39 am 2.Amy said …
I’ve been pondering on just these thoughts the past few weeks! More on my own blog to not make this a two page comment! Bless you for your boldness!
on 07 Sep 2006 at 8:05 am 3.mike said …
wine is not better than kool aid if you are 6 years old.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 8:13 am 4.Sarah said …
Wow, Tia. Who is Mike and what is this tenison between you two all about? My goodness.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 8:27 am 5.Dr. Hibiscus said …
Oh, this is a tough one.
I agree that relativism taken to the EXTREME is bad, because we are given standards to live up to by God. Summed up by Jesus in Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
The problem is that these commandments are very broad and all-encompassing, and in order to implement them in our own lives we have to INTERPRET how they apply to a given situation. This is where the relativism comes in. As Jesus says “all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments” - so when we start interpreting how they apply to particular situations we run the risk of becoming pharasitical in our implementation of the “greatest commandments” and applying our own interpretation to others.
As Mike said, just because you think wine is better than kool-aid, doesn’t mean it is for everyone. Some people LOVE velveeta and can’t stand aged cheddar - does that make them “wrong”? When we start making value judgements for others we become judgemental, and this is something that God clearly frowns on…
Luckily, we are not responsible for making other people’s decisions for them. We can discuss with them, try to persuade them to our own interpretation, explain to them how their decisions impact themselves and others, etc. But ultimately their decisions are their own and they are responsible to God, who will make the ultimate judgement. (and I’m glad that’s his job and not mine…)
on 07 Sep 2006 at 8:30 am 6.Sarah K. said …
Hey! All of us (Sarahs) need to expand with initials or something. Good grief, how many of us do you know? 6, 7?
on 07 Sep 2006 at 9:10 am 7.Unnamed but you know! said …
Ha, all that sounds very familiar! Do I know you, did we have the same pastor?
on 07 Sep 2006 at 9:58 am 8.Amy said …
I’m not sure that when Jesus said that “all the laws and the prophets hang on these two commands” had anything to do with acceptance of what God’s word determines as sin. It had to do with acceptance of individuals during their faith journey … and, how can we possibly love someone as we love ourselves and not point them in the direction of truth …
and before anyone asks who’s truth, I’m talking about God’s truth … which looks very different as you allowed Him to transform your heart, mind, soul and strength.
I do agree that there are a hundred situations where we can compare grape juice and kool-aid OR Velveeta and aged cheddar or jeans and skirts OR praise ‘n worship and Psalm singing … what it comes down to is which one aids me in preparation to approach the Living God I serve in a way in which He can speak His truth into my heart. But there are some non- negotiable items on the agenda. Aren’t those the ones we’re REALLY talking about here??
on 07 Sep 2006 at 10:09 am 9.Sarah K. said …
That is interesting. I have never considered that verse that way. I have always taken this verse to mean that all of the commandments and all of the prophets teachings are fundamentally love God and also love others. That if you obey these two commandments then you automatically obey all the others.
After all, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you have his best interests at heart, and that certainly means you don’t steal from him, lie to him, etc.
If you love God with all your heart then there is no room for an idol and no desire to dishonor Him.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 6:25 pm 10.Tia said …
Wow! Okay! I’ll just reply by person, all in one comment. Glad you guys had so much to say!
Sarah and Amy…thanks for the encouraging words. I think I probably talk too much and it’s okay to tell me to “shush” but it’s also nice to hear that what I expressed wasn’t totally off in left field.
Mike…come to my church.
Wine is precious and beautiful and communion served with real bread and wine can not be compared to saltines and koolaid. Promimse. Even for the little ones. You probably don’t know that we are paedocommunionists.
Sarah…I’m sorry if there seems to be tension between me and Mike. I can’t speak for him but I mean NONE of this personally. He has been writing some thought-provoking stuff and I’ve felt compelled to process how I respond to it. It’s the topics I’m passionate about; no problems with Mike himself. OTH, Mike is in the process of a church plant that is implementing much of what is being talked about, so he may be feeling vulnerable on it right now.
Dr H….I was thinking in the car that I should have clarified I meant in both food examples that they were a “lesser” choice nutrtionally speaking. Both are practically non-foods and bad for our bodies. I wouldn’t (though with all the nutrition reading I’ve been doing it’s tempting) say that they are “wrong” choices. Simply not equal to the foods they somewhat strive to emmulate and fail so miserably. And both examples were given to show that we are comfortable seeing better/lesser choices in other areas of our lives but when we get to spirituality we like to make A LOT relative and “preference”. It’s less messy.
I’m glad I don’t have the responsibility for making up others’ minds for them. I was posting why me, myself, and I have a problem with certain attitudes and how they pertain to christianity. Anyway, glad to see you commenting again
Sarah K…yes, I’m very fond of initials when “Sarahs” are concerned
Hey Unnamed!!! I was thinking about you TONS today! Glad you showed your e-face (somewhat) LOL.
Amy….do you mean to say there are “essentials of the faith”? ITA. And I think most christians would. Where I am right now in my life, I’m looking past essentials. Trying to see how it ALL, even the mundane, affects growing to be like Christ (sanctification, holiness, whathaveyou). Something like children or not in church may seem like preference until you consider that sitting under the word may be a grace to those children, it may affect the church universal and what the body looks like, it may draw us ALL to less self-absorption. It starts to look a little more essential to me. But I”m rambling again….
Sarah K..I think you were replying to Randy but my thoughts: first, I’m a miserable worm when it comes to REALLY loving others. I WANT to love them regardless, because of, in spite of, along side their “choices”…just LOVE them. And I’m really not sitting here thinking poorly of anyone who chooses something I’d consider a “lesser” choice based on my understanding of scripture. What I am definitly doing is loudly articulating my own choices and why I’m trying to be deliberate in the choosing of them. Probably clear as mississippi mud after a rain.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 7:23 pm 11.Sarah said …
This is too funny! Sorry to say but initials won’t help here since, I too, am a Sarah K.
I guess I could go by Sarah in Indy or something like that. 
on 07 Sep 2006 at 7:28 pm 12.mike said …
definitely nothing personal with me. tia and i were reconnected through a blog when she disagreed with a post of mine and posted about it. i don’t feel vulnerable in the least…we are solid and steadfast with what we’re trying to accomplish for the Kingdom.
tia, if I come to your church and bring my 4 year old and 1 year old girls, will you come to mine and check your kids into KidVenture?
seriously, i don’t want to make everything a big issue…there are obviously disagreements between people, but that’s part of the conversation. i’ve always been one to speak my mind, stir the pot, argue and debate, and join a conversation. we may all be wrong.
on 07 Sep 2006 at 8:24 pm 13.Amy said …
I am with you on the children in church thing … and don’t see it as offensive at all. One of the books I love most is Parenting in the Pew, author escapes me right now! The picture of this mommy introducing her children to her heavenly father sold me on that point long ago … as for the rest of it … well, at 10:19, I really need to go to bed! I wouldn’t contribute anything worthwhile until morning! If any of it’s been worthwhile anyway! I’m in a debate sort of mood … dh hates when I get like this, so take what’s worth anything and discard the rest!
on 07 Sep 2006 at 9:08 pm 14.Tia said …
Mike, I’d happily come visit and sit with my family in your service ;-).
on 07 Sep 2006 at 10:23 pm 15.Dr. Hibiscus said …
Wow… Tia, you really got everyone stirred up today! What fun!
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify my meaning in my earlier post, since I think people took it slightly the wrong way. When I said:
“when we start interpreting how they apply to particular situations we run the risk of becoming pharasitical in our implementation of the ‘greatest commandments’ and applying our own interpretation to others.”
I was thinking of issues that often divide Christians from one another, NOT things that distinguish Christians from non-Christians. For example: infant baptism vs. adult baptism, sprinkling vs. immersion, praise songs vs. hymns, family together in church vs. children’s church… You get the picture. The standards are set, and as Sarah K. said, if you obey the “love God” and “love your neighbor” commandments, everything else kind of falls into place. BUT, there can be differences of opinion about things like praise songs vs. hymns that CAN be equally right for different people. And yet these are the issues that divide the church into so many different denominations I’ve lost count…
In our church there is a saying: “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, love.” I’ve always thought that summed things up nicely.
on 09 Sep 2006 at 5:39 pm 16.mike said …
haha…that figures.
you want me to consider your way, but you’re not willing to approach the discussion with the same open mind.
it’s all good though. you’ve obviously got something that works for you, that you feel called to, and I honestly wouldn’t want to disrupt you.
you’re not the person we’re trying to reach through oak leaf.
on 09 Sep 2006 at 8:46 pm 17.Tia said …
It’s not about having an “open mind” or not Mike. It’s about being consistant with our CHILDREN. For years they have worshipped with us, been a complete and total part, down to the very sacrements. It would be totally inconsistant and confusing to them to visit ANY church and be sent to another room for the service.
As for children being included in corporate worship, I’ll be so bold as to say it’s not “my” way that I’ve been talking about this week.
As for not being the person you’re trying to reach….it might benifit you (and your ministry) to stop putting people in boxes. The “unchurched” aren’t always “religously ignorant” and the lifetime churchgoer sometimes finds themselves unchruched and on someone’s target list. Life is full of surprises.
on 11 Sep 2006 at 2:09 pm 18.mike said …
ok, i am going to stop arguing now.
time to stay on the wall.